tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post6985674195952091610..comments2024-03-26T23:57:42.268-04:00Comments on SpeEdChange: Must Readirasocolhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-8729510256093716852008-06-03T09:00:00.000-04:002008-06-03T09:00:00.000-04:00i don't find anything major to disagree with in yo...i don't find anything major to disagree with in your post. it's going to be an exciting future for education. a lot of locked up potential is going to be set free if these technologies come into wide use- i think it is inevitable that they will, if not promoted by the school, then by word of mouth among people who need/simply enjoy assistive technology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-61560837649082897172008-06-03T07:41:00.000-04:002008-06-03T07:41:00.000-04:00Vera:Your questions probably require two whole new...Vera:<BR/><BR/>Your questions probably require two whole new posts to answer, and I will probably do that over the next week or two, but short answers...<BR/><BR/>As I've said here before - and it is perhaps my most "radical" thought - I believe that the "customer" in education is always the student: not the parent, not the community, not the society, not the economic system. That does not suggest abdicating the adult role, or abdicating the mentor role, but it means that the goals need to be the student's goals and the path must be the student's paths. Those goals and paths must be suggested, advised, recommended - as well as marked (to some extent), cleared (to some extent), made safe (to some extent). The paths need guides, and maps. The range of goals must be available to see, as well as the complexities (or just possibilities) of reaching that success. Still, I don't want parent goals for students. I don't want societal goals. I want student goals. Those are the goals students will strive to reach.<BR/><BR/>Because, yes, I've seen good parents, but I've also seen awful parents - in every economic class. And I've seen clueless parents - in every economic class. And I've seen the terrible decisions other responsible adults make for children. And I think that, when child-centered education is actually given a chance, it typically proves stunningly successful.<BR/><BR/>As for reading, I think the question (and I'm asked it often) "give up trying to teach a struggling student to break the alphabetic code and instead have the student rely on technology to read to them for the rest of their lives" presents a false dichotomy. After all, some of the very best readers I know listen to books all day long on their iPods. It is very rarely an either/or choice. So I think you use technology from the start to increase "read to" time and access to content if the student responds to that. Evidence suggests that just using text-to-speech technology that way improves traditional reading in at least half of struggling readers - by increasing sight-word recognition and (with the best software) emphasizing sentence structure.<BR/><BR/>With real "non reader" students in third grade and beyond I suggest using about half of "reading instruction" time working on decoding (the reading equivalent of physical therapy for a non-walker who you hope might walk), but the other half <I>must</I> be devoted to building comprehension skills in text-to-speech environments. Students who are not exposed to reading comprehension strategies in middle primary grades because of reading decoding issues are - in my observations - the students most likely to drop out of school, because school proves irrelevant.<BR/><BR/>By 13, 14, 15, ink-on-paper should only be a choice. Remember, the technology is still showing them the alphabetic code. It is all there. They will learn it if they are going to learn it. I have never seen a dyslexic student who did not wish reading "ink-on-paper" wasn't easier ("Can you help me read my girlfriend's notes?" and other questions). So, once beyond primary, make the support available, but don't insist. What matters is that they learn that what's in books is valuable, and that they can learn to work with that information.<BR/><BR/>- Ira Socolirasocolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-11204332154403459352008-06-02T22:04:00.000-04:002008-06-02T22:04:00.000-04:00maybe.? but i have to say for the vast majority o...maybe.? but i have to say for the vast majority of parents the problem is not being over-active re school, it's not being active at all. you have 'savage inequalities' on your recommended reading list. i taught in one of those districts kozol mentions: camden, nj. the problem there was parents not getting involved- in their kid's school or in their government. that's a recipe for corruption/abuse. <BR/><BR/>and not all kids hate school. i grew up working on a farm. i used to call the september opening of school 'school vacation'. the majority of my teachers were great and some even changed my life.<BR/><BR/> i happen to think nclb with all its flaws put fire to the feet in those 'do whatever you want' districts like camden. why, camden got so scared of sanctions,some principals started instructing teachers to put up hints on the board during the tests. the principal i worked under was recently indicted for squirreling away field trip money parents gave him for trips that were paid for by the state. when you have that kind of garbage in leadership positions, you need something to get them to teach children, especially if the parents are too timid, don't understand the system, can't speak english, too tired, etc to get the garbage out.<BR/><BR/>so parents(outside of a few nutcases who violate universal moral principles by not wanting to educate girls or those who want corporal punishment in the schools) should decide what and how their children learn. caring parents would want what's best, and that's where we who think we know best have to persuade them on what educational principles to support. your blog is part of the persuasive fight. <BR/><BR/>but i can't believe you advocate letting the child be in the driver's seat totally. you want to entice the child onto your path (the path of questioning/critical thinking/compassion etc) by creating an irresistible learning environment for the child- an environment that works with the child's nature, not against it, as was illustrated by the school in borderliners. you still have a code you want the child to learn/ you know what you want students to move towards- you're just not ramming it down their throats.<BR/><BR/>a question- at what point (what age and what reading level) do you think a teacher should give up trying to teach a struggling student to break the alphabetic code and instead have the student rely on technology to read to them for the rest of their lives?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-20404240124718323152008-06-01T22:28:00.000-04:002008-06-01T22:28:00.000-04:00Vera:I tend to think that most five year olds shou...Vera:<BR/><BR/>I tend to think that most five year olds should be playing and exploring and not being assessed. This doesn't mean that you don't create safe environments, stimulating environments, exploratory environments, but almost every child I've seen at that age is a natural learner - a process more often destroyed by the school (and/or school and over-active parent) process than enhanced.<BR/><BR/>It is always interesting. Every year we take millions of five-year-olds who are desperate to go to school and desperate to learn, and - with just three or four years of education - we turn them into kids who hate school and need to be paid for grades.<BR/><BR/>Maybe they're better at controlling their learning than the adults are.<BR/><BR/>- Ira Socolirasocolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-57944955689722028032008-06-01T21:45:00.000-04:002008-06-01T21:45:00.000-04:00so you are going way beyond what is involved in UD...so you are going way beyond what is involved in UDL and Lisa/Christines's classroom. you are giving the student total decision-making power. i think there are quite a few 5 year olds who would want to delve into the mysteries of seeing how much chocolate their stomachs could hold, and forget the reading and writing. when you were raising your own child/children, did you have any guidelines/expected standards of behavior for them? did you homeschool them? as for who decides how the student is to be judged, while the student is a minor, that power should be in the hands of the parent. but as the power of the state and the teacher's union stands now, only parents who decide to homeschool or have the money for private school really have that power. what power parents of public schoolers have is usually abdicated to the school as most parents don't want to 'make waves' and kids don't want their parents to make them stand out as different (starting at puberty). the exception to that rule is wealthier parents who have the self-confidence to go up against school administrators.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-58649303149779651532008-06-01T20:59:00.000-04:002008-06-01T20:59:00.000-04:00Vera:I do subscribe to the idea that students (if ...Vera:<BR/><BR/>I do subscribe to the idea that students (if students they are to be) are "moving." I don't dispute the right of people to remain static, though I do think that would be an unfortunate state for a child. But I think that "student" - the word, the "position," suggests movement toward something.<BR/><BR/>The question is, of course, toward what? And who decides the what? And who decides the route? The "what" and the "route" are the "code of practice." And that may something "solidly" real - Hoeg's 400m race or my professors "how a building stands up." Or it may be absolutely arbitrary - how to write citations, how to bind a thesis, where to sit in a classroom, which way to "read" a book. Or, perhaps, it might lie in some fuzzy (culturally dependent) "in between" - how to write a sentence, how to solve a math problem, how to describe a historical event.<BR/><BR/>So the question is not what is in the matrix - the question is who gets to make the matrix? Can the student be the arbiter of their own progress? Can the student set their own goals? Can the student decide which way to move right now? <BR/><BR/>I think those are the questions. Then, what is being measured is the student moving against his or her own scale of achievement. And I'd argue that this is a different process than someone else measuring a student against a scale that is assembled through averaging the achievements of others.<BR/><BR/>- Ira Socolirasocolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-10100935155731421732008-06-01T20:29:00.000-04:002008-06-01T20:29:00.000-04:00ira said: Why wouldn't all student "demonstration...ira said: Why wouldn't all student "demonstration of progress" be via student-determined portfolio? I<BR/><BR/>Vera says: no matter whether you use a student-determined portfolio or a state test, you, ira, still subscribe to the idea of "demonstration of student progress". Who is to judge if the student has made progress with the portfolio method? What standards will you as judge of the portfolio apply? I think excellent rubrics exist for judging the creative/persuasive writing on the njask. maybe you would also like to adopt the same rubrics but have them used to judge multiple examples of a student's work as contained in their portfolio?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-79116622978980779582008-06-01T06:36:00.000-04:002008-06-01T06:36:00.000-04:00Vera:Hoeg isn't writing a thesis, he's telling a s...Vera:<BR/><BR/>Hoeg isn't writing a thesis, he's telling a story that asks questions. He is not prescribing, he is doubting. But I don't think he is refusing to allow comparison, rather he is making clear the arbitrary and subjective nature of comparison. I'll guess that he is suggesting that we measure children against a set of absolutely arbitrary judgments which we cannot even explain to them - perhaps characterized most dramatically by the thought (in one of the above quotes) that you will be considered "less intelligent" if you disagree with the fables of the Protestant "work ethic." (Having just, once again, been exposed to "IQ" testing, I can assure you that the tests remain every bit as culturally biased today as they've ever been.)<BR/><BR/>His use of the term "code of practice" is interesting, because that is always the question. For example, Teach for America assumes a different code of practice for poor kids than rich kids (if it did not, TFA recruits would be teaching the kids of the TFA Board and NYTimes' editors in Scarsdale and Greenwich, and the teachers from those schools would be sent to The Bronx and Gary, Indiana). There is nothing wrong with those differing codes of practice, of course. The problem is who gets to write those codes, who gets to do the eventual comparing, who is allowed to function according to their own rules, and who is not?<BR/><BR/>Consider NJ's assessment of creativity. It is surely - we'd have to think - better than what most states do, but why would we have these tests at all? Why wouldn't all student "demonstration of progress" be via student-determined portfolio? I remember a professor at Pratt Institute (Brooklyn) explaining the School of Architecture's policy of not having grades: "How do you get an "A" or a "B" in a design studio?" he asked, "You either are investigating your ideas of design or you are not. And as for structures courses, no one leaves my class knowing 90% of what it takes to make a building stand up."<BR/><BR/>In other words, as in that 400 meter race - when there is a clear code of conduct we can say "yes" or "no." When there is not - and in most things there is not - then we need to encourage, to suggest, to support, but also to allow, to permit, to tolerate.<BR/><BR/>But none of that suggests that we can not disagree, or challenge, or doubt - or - that we should not be desperately encouraging our students to do the same.<BR/><BR/>Su:<BR/><BR/>Google desktop is one more great way to build personalization into personal computing. Thanks for bringing that up. We need a good post about that.<BR/><BR/>- Ira Socolirasocolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-72955298945668581012008-05-31T22:41:00.000-04:002008-05-31T22:41:00.000-04:00from borderliners: Never at any time have they be...from borderliners: Never at any time have they been able to agree on a method for determining when one drawing, one meal, one sentence, one insult, the picking of one lock, one blow, one patriotic song, one Danish essay, one playground, one frog, or one interview is good or bad or better or worse than another."<BR/><BR/>vera says: how can you determine that the students who are trained as teachers for teach for america are worse than the teachers in the system now? you criticize teach for america, right? can i criticize what you say? how do i do that? when i read what hoeg wrote above, it sounds like he is saying nobody can compare anything with anything. i must be wrong, because that thesis is absurd. btw, have you ever seen the types of questions that are asked on some of the state tests NCLB accepts? in nj creativity is rewarded, persuasive writing built on good examples and logic is rewarded- oops! just the things one could extract from hoeg's book!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-68095987383534434302008-05-31T11:23:00.000-04:002008-05-31T11:23:00.000-04:00i'm going to my county library and getting borderl...i'm going to my county library and getting borderliners and the drool room. if nobody has the drool room, even through interlibrary loan, i'll ask that they buy it- the excerpts from it justify that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-10056471805819107292008-05-31T10:43:00.000-04:002008-05-31T10:43:00.000-04:00Wow, two posts.....it feels like Christmas =:)Quic...Wow, two posts.....it feels like Christmas =:)<BR/><BR/>Quick question, have you ever explored Google desktop? Not only is it very cool (I have these cute koi fish swimming around), but also you can customize it with whatever gadgets you want. I have the BBC&NPR players, my gmail account, spellchecker, a scratchpad, RSS feeds, text to speech, del.ic.ious (for tagging), and even a Remember the Milk display (which I added thanks to you).<BR/><BR/>-susuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14556146556434975979noreply@blogger.com