tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post4096343685246252634..comments2024-03-26T23:57:42.268-04:00Comments on SpeEdChange: Coercive Technologyirasocolhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-4245414788189134062008-06-26T23:39:00.000-04:002008-06-26T23:39:00.000-04:00Ira, thanks for this.Your point about who the 'mas...Ira, thanks for this.<BR/><BR/>Your point about who the 'master' is is very nice. Education is an expensive and elaborate social undertaking. It would be bizarre to expect that to happen without some 'payoff' in terms of social functionality. You're quite right that both lecture and motivational pandering produce students who are used to waiting for others to tell them what to do and what to be interested in (along with all the resistance games to that). Those are the sorts of people who can staff middle management without going nuts.<BR/><BR/>There's not a lot of demand in the economy for independent critical thinkers and it's more than amply supplied. We might well argue that critical thinking is a more accomplished humanity, but this argument has little cash value and it's not clear who should be expected to pay for it (our salaries, dontcha know) in a market economy.<BR/><BR/>That said, I have high expectations for my students, engage them as people whenever they'll let me, try to meet them half way on interest and motivation, and hope that 'mine' will be among those few who get to do critical thinking for a living.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-19506575955027140952008-06-26T08:30:00.000-04:002008-06-26T08:30:00.000-04:00Your posts and the comments people submit are givi...Your posts and the comments people submit are giving me more energy for researching my field than i think i've ever had. so keep up the good work. ;]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-14979946450127896182008-06-26T08:07:00.000-04:002008-06-26T08:07:00.000-04:00Vera:Good question. Nothing like grad school to de...Vera:<BR/><BR/>Good question. Nothing like grad school to destroy one's self-confidence in one's communication capabilities.<BR/><BR/>I'll stop.<BR/><BR/>- Irairasocolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-68473028865186771622008-06-26T08:02:00.000-04:002008-06-26T08:02:00.000-04:00warningoff topic short extraneous/nit-picky commen...warning<BR/><BR/>off topic <BR/><BR/>short extraneous/nit-picky comment: <BR/><BR/>who has been putting all that pre-post disclaimer/warning (past 4 posts or so) additive in your breakfast cereal?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-67916222724790219642008-06-26T07:30:00.000-04:002008-06-26T07:30:00.000-04:00Vera:Generally, the lecture course is exactly like...Vera:<BR/><BR/>Generally, the lecture course is exactly like reading a book on your own, or, if you have a great instructor, like watching something on Discovery or The History Channel. The only reason to do it "in school" rather than "outside of school" is that schools control credentials. <BR/><BR/>And, at "Research Universities" few, if any, of those "teaching" (be they faculty or grad students) will have been hired or promoted for their teaching abilities. That doesn't mean there are not great teachers in those places, but it might suggest that they are rare.<BR/><BR/>But there are choices. Including apprenticeship type environments, and collaborative type environments (see Evergreen State College, College of the Atlantic) and real communities of scholars (see St. John's in Annapolis and Santa Fe). There is also the idea of "getting out" for a year or two or three. Not going to university right away. <BR/><BR/>There's a reason students like Cheri above tend to do much better. They've been outside. They know what matters to them. They've learned better self-advocacy skills. And they are at university because they've decided to go, rather than because it is what they are expected to do (coming back to that question of internal rather than external control).<BR/><BR/>- Ira Socolirasocolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-81863595736951793682008-06-26T07:06:00.000-04:002008-06-26T07:06:00.000-04:00ira said: (b) Should students be in college if th...ira said: (b) Should students be in college if they are not interested in reading the books or attending class? Or should we have alternative forms of post-secondary education for those not interested in that "liberal arts core"?<BR/><BR/>this is the point i personally am most interested in. i always viewed large lectures as on par with learning from a book or video. small group discussion led by graduate student teaching assistants was usually lacking as these people aren't usually experienced teachers who know how to guide/get the best out of the students in their discussion groups. my daughters are in middle school now, but as i look to the future for them, i would like to find apprenticeship type learning in whatever field they choose. i think that exists now to a certain extent, but it is definitely something i need to research more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-16127882690540025562008-06-26T07:05:00.000-04:002008-06-26T07:05:00.000-04:00Melinda:One prof attempted to bring these into one...Melinda:<BR/><BR/>One prof attempted to bring these into one class. I left. I figure, at this level of my education, if I'm being offered multiple choice, I'm out the door.<BR/><BR/>But at the undergrad level they are everywhere there is a lecture hall (outside of those "elite" schools), and they are spreading rapidly into K-12. Districts which still won't spend the money to comply with accessibility laws are wasting that cash instead on this nonsense (which, of course, makes their schools even less accessible, while encouraging "teaching-by-PowerPoint").<BR/><BR/>That might be because resistance to the clickers is growing at many universities, so the companies peddling these systems are shifting their profit focus toward the least sophisticated tech decision makers on the planet - the US K-12 school board. They can usually be ripped of for price of a good lunch and a fancy brochure.<BR/><BR/>- Ira Socolirasocolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-21437329623698213072008-06-26T06:59:00.000-04:002008-06-26T06:59:00.000-04:00Cheri:Thanks for responding, thanks for un-anonymi...Cheri:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for responding, thanks for un-anonymizing. I appreciate your passion but I wonder if you are trying to fix the problems you describe with the cause of the problems you describe.<BR/><BR/>It is not an original thought of mine that coercive educational strategies (be they technological or not) breed sheep and not independent thinking humans capable of managing their own learning. The students you describe - who have not learned how to study, or work in class, or work in groups - are like this because the coercive structure of their schools encourages that failure. When coercion is the dominant mode of control it removes all incentive for self-regulation from the learner, and all incentive to provide better 'instruction' from the 'teacher.' The locus of control has become completely external. When American secondary students describe their schools as being indistinguishable from prisons, this is what they are describing.<BR/><BR/>There are so many ways to build the engagement you are seeking, to expect students to do the best they can, to allow anonymity when necessary, to encourage across-the-board participation. But the best ways to do this offer students choices so that they can build strategies that will help them function everywhere, not just in the classroom. Coercion doesn't do that. Coercion turns the whole thing into a game of prisoners and guards. When I watched a woman pull seven clickers out of her backpack in a lecture three months ago - answering (and getting attendance points) for all of her friends, I was watching that game play out exactly as it always will.<BR/><BR/>Two more points. You say, "typing in long questions would be too disruptive and time consuming." Sorry, I disagree. I think that we always need to make time for student questions and student answers, especially the unanticipated questions and answers. If we don't, education might as well be simply presented as a one-way video feed. The only reason - in my opinion - that we pay people to teach in our society is so they can meet learners where they are and help them get to where they need to go. But that teacher has no idea where there learners are if they shield themselves from the unanticipated reaction through multiple choice.<BR/><BR/>And, on competition? There's that old joke: "Q: What do you call the person who graduated last in his class at medical school? A: Doctor." (we could update it, "Q: What do you call the person who graduated last in his class at Yale? A: President Bush.") You are right, the US has a miserable capitalist system, but competition in schools is not the answer. Schools which seek to provide every student with what they need are the answer. You cannot both divide students into successes and failures at every turn and then claim that "No Child [is] Left Behind."<BR/><BR/>- Ira Socolirasocolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-3987049329087107082008-06-26T01:44:00.000-04:002008-06-26T01:44:00.000-04:00I think you missed my point (in anonymous above). ...I think you missed my point (in anonymous above). I really think this technology would make larger classes more interesting and engaging, and telecommunications classes might really benefit from a technology like this. The clickers allow for quick answers. Typing long answers into a cell phone would be disruptive and time consuming. All technology becomes quickly outdated. If the technology is useful, it evolves, updates and upgrades. <BR/><BR/>But that wasn't your main gripe about clickers. You see them as coercive. Teachers have many ways to ensure students show up for class. Many include attendence points in the syllabus, and pop quizzes. Is that too coercive? If we updated the technology and used cell phones instead of clickers, would they be any less coercive? <BR/><BR/>Your questions aren't new. Teachers everywhere, no matter how old their students are, complain a lot about how lazy students are these days and how none of them want to learn anymore. There will always be people who like to slack in all walks of life, and I am old enough to know that it's always been that way. Perhaps our country would be better off not even trying to educate our future citizens? I hope my answers help. a) I don't think teachers need to babysit college students. Most of the students I go to college with attend class regularly (although some do seem to spend a lot of time TMing their friends all through class). I am a 44 year old non-traditional student 6 credits shy of my bachelors degree, maintaining a 3.8 gpa while taking care of my adult autistic son, so I definitely don't need a sitter. b) There is more to learning than just being interested and engaged. Most people don't know how to learn appropriately because they aren't taught the necessary study skills in high school. Most don't know how to navigate through a text book, let alone glean it for what they need to know. I buy used books and see how they get highlighted - it's a sad commentary on our educational system. c) Whether you (or I) like it or not, education is a competition. Everything in life is a competition. It starts in kindergarten when every child wants to be teacher's favorite. It never ends and will never end as long as we live in a capitalistic society. They don't give great scholarships to students who don't excel at something, and not as many students as you might think get a free ride through school. The teacher I spoke of made sure to give everyone who wanted to participate a chance. It made the class interesting. I was one of the few who usually knew the answer and volunteered to speak. Some people are afraid of looking stupid in front of their peers. They will not answer a question unless they know for sure they won't say the wrong thing. Some people are like that. A device that allows a person like that to respond anonymously would be very helpful, don't you think?<BR/><BR/>d) This particular class was awesome and demanding. In my studies I have found that really good teachers who know how to elicit participation are in the majority, but I have had teachers who like to listen to themselves talk. It is a state run school with a good reputation, and I feel I am getting a good educaiton.<BR/><BR/>e) Cheaper devices would be better; cheaper books would be better; and lower tuition would be better. I pay whatever price it takes to learn what I need to learn. I really like the idea of a multiple choice check, as long as it also occurs along side verbal participation. The teacher can keep track of how well the students are learning and what reteaching needs to be done in real, ongoing time. Most don't know until the tests are scored. Like I said before, typing in long questions would be too disruptive and time consuming. Students should be taking notes in class so that they can answer the big questions on tests. <BR/><BR/>Sometimes simple technology is enough. Newer and bigger doesn't always equal better.Cherihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04096208314029157642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-31624042991100664042008-06-25T23:26:00.000-04:002008-06-25T23:26:00.000-04:00Ira - Have you taken a class that required clicker...Ira - Have you taken a class that required clickers? When did these come in? This is new to me...MelindaMelinda Pongrey, MSEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03820854205598732458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-9091734613396677512008-06-25T21:29:00.000-04:002008-06-25T21:29:00.000-04:00'College Student' raises some important issues:The...'College Student' raises some important issues:<BR/><BR/>There are the big questions: (a) Are college students adults in control of their own learning? Or are they best treated as middle school age kids where behaviors are set for them? (b) Should students be in college if they are not interested in reading the books or attending class? Or should we have alternative forms of post-secondary education for those not interested in that "liberal arts core"? (c) Is education a competition ("In every class there are a few people who can and want to answer all of the questions in class. I think it would have been beneficial to have some way of demonstrating that I knew at least as many answers as those few who did.")? Or is education something which does not require comparisons?<BR/><BR/>There are the smaller questions, including: (d) What exactly is the norm for student engagement at this student's college? (Sounds like it is typically zero.) <BR/><BR/>And, of course, there are technical questions, beginning with: (e) If this is really a good idea wouldn't it be even better if it was much cheaper, allowed real interaction, and wasn't based in antiquated disposable technology?<BR/>http://blog.polleverywhere.com/2008/06/25/cross-post-our-view-on-phones-as-clickers/<BR/><BR/>- Ira Socolirasocolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412837280249622430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-11745268227463278582008-06-25T20:28:00.000-04:002008-06-25T20:28:00.000-04:00I am a college student who thinks the clickers wou...I am a college student who thinks the clickers would be great to have in classes! I just completed a class where the instructor took attendance AND expected us to read the book and contribute the knowledged gleened from that reading during lectures. It was the best taught class I have ever attended. <BR/><BR/>In every class there are a few people who can and want to answer all of the questions in class. I think it would have been beneficial to have some way of demonstrating that I knew at least as many answers as those few who did. It is also probable that the feedback the student gets from answering questions with a clicker is beneficial to the learning process as well.<BR/><BR/>I know from experience that classes where student involvement is encouraged are the classes I learn the most from. It sounds like 70% of the students who used the clickers agree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19457872.post-87746779487814401702008-06-25T13:30:00.000-04:002008-06-25T13:30:00.000-04:00You might enjoy a book that my friend Justin Gorma...You might enjoy a book that my friend Justin Gorman wrote about compulsory education. It's free here:<BR/>http://www.spunk.org/texts/educate/sp000838.htmlRufushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17762279210783841414noreply@blogger.com